CHARLIE LISTER OBE – Q&A WITH MARK PIERREPONT

You know you have made it to the top in your profession when you are instantly recognised by your Christian name. So when Mark Pierrepont said: “Charlie has agreed to do a question and answer session” nobody asked ‘Charlie who?’

Back in the 1970s/80s, Charlie Lister (pre OBE) became a force to be feared on the independent scene with occasional raids into NGRC, territory. By the early 1990s the raids were taking place in the opposite direction, and before the Millennium was upon us, the name ‘Lister’ was peppering the headlines with victories in the most prestigious NGRC competitions.

In greyhound circles, ‘Charlie’ is a living legend. This is what he had to say:

Dessie Loughrey

Charlie, you had a great friendship and working relationship with Dessie Loughrey, the Farloe prefix breeder/rearer from Limavady in Northern Ireland. How did that relationship begin?

“Just by chance really I suppose. I fancied buying a dog he had and rang him up one day to see if we could do a deal. For whatever reason it didn’t happen on that occasion but Dessie told me to come over sometime and he’d show me what dogs he had about.

“That took for a little while, until Mark Bates, who has owned dogs with me for a lot of years, mentioned that he was heading over to see Dessie as he had some pups with him. I took the opportunity to go over with Mark and that is when I first met Dessie.

“We hit it off as both dog people and also as friends. Dessie supplied me with some top class dogs over the years, Farloe Verdict being one who I rate as the best bitch I ever trained plus others such as Fear Zafonic, Farloe Tango and Ninja Jamie. All top class greyhounds.

“I’d go over to see Dessie regularly, I’d stay with him and he’d take me off to Lifford or to the local schooling tracks where he’d put a few youngsters around. Often I’d like the look of a pup, I’d say to Dessie ‘let’s do a deal on that one’

“Quite often Dessie would turn to me and say ‘Charlie leave it I’ve a better one than that for you’. He wasn’t wrong very often, he was a very good judge of a greyhound. We remained friends until the day Dessie died, I was sad not to get over to the funeral but at the time there was a problem with the flights going in and out of the UK and it just wasn’t possible.

“The funeral was arranged quickly and there just wasn’t time to sort things out. I was upset not to make it but Dessie was in my thoughts and is to this day, I spoke with his daughter Jenny who has taken over things now. They’re a great family.

Bolton

You started your training career of like a lot of the best on the independent tracks, what was your favourite track on that circuit ?

“There were some excellent tracks about in those days, too many to mention really. I always enjoyed Bolton in the North West though. It was a terrific circuit, they held some really good events there and I had my fair share of success at the track. The bookmakers there also laid a good bet as well, you could get on.

“I used to enjoy going to Long Eaton in the midlands as well which as you know was run by your friend Pete Harnden’s family. Pete’s dad Don was a good man, they run a good track and it’s good to see Peter doing his best for the sport now.

Charlie the next question sent in goes back to the last question really, what would be your biggest gamble landed on the flapping tracks ?

“I enjoyed a bet but I maybe wasn’t the biggest gambler some people might think. That said I suppose it wasn’t unknown for me to have a couple of grand on a dog, which when you look back at how long ago that was it would have been a fair old whack.

Charlie it’s been asked that you apparently learned everything you know from Albert Draper, true or false ?

“I couldn’t tell you where that one has come from I’m afraid, I learned the vast majority of what I did about dogs from my father who was a big coursing man. He taught me the ropes from a young age and I kicked on from there really.

Back onto the flaps you won many competitions, what were the highlights ?

“I’d say winning the Blackpool Derby five times has to be up there, you needed a good dog and to have it done right to win that competition so to win it five times took some doing. I won the Ashfield Derby a couple of times with a real good dog called Superior Champ who I bought from Geoffrey De Mulder. I liked the look of him and asked if I could buy him. We agreed on a price of £1,200 and Geoffrey said, ‘come down and seem him run in the heats of the Silver Salver.’ I went along and the dog ran well. When I asked about taking the dog, Geoffrey started beating about the houses.

He said, ‘leave him with me for the final. By the way, the owner said the dog would be £1,500.’ That was a lot of money back then (1976), but I really liked the look of him. Champ won the final – Ballinderry Moth was supposed to be the best sprinter around at that time, and she was second.

“When I said I would be taking the dog home with me, Geoffrey said ‘the owner isn’t right happy about selling the dog’. To be truthful, I am not even sure the owner knew that his dog had been sold. I was fuming but I reeled off another £200 and told Geoffrey that that was the end of it, I was taking the dog.

“He still persuaded me to leave the dog with him for a few races. After that I took him flapping but in honesty he was lucky to see the track at all. Myself and Joe Booth had bought a nice new van to take the dogs about in.

“So we’ve got Champ in the back of the van when all of a sudden the back doors fly open and Champ goes out the back. Thankfully he didn’t run away but was bruised up and had a few cuts. Joe wanted to keep hold of him for a few weeks to get him sorted out and then once he had him right wanted to run him in the Ashfield Derby.

“We did that and he won it, I think by memory it was about £3500 to the winner so you can see it was good prizemoney, I think that would have been about 1976. The year after I had Champ in my own kennel and took him back for the same event which he won again. I remember driving away from Ashfield that night in 1977 and putting the radio on in the van, it just came on the news about Elvis dying.

“They say you remember where you were when certain people have passed or events have happened, I remember vividly driving away from Ashfield and hearing that dreadful news about Elvis.

You’ve had some interesting characters as owners over the years, I’m asked about a bare knuckle gypsy champion who had some good dogs with you ?

“That would be Bob Gaskin. Bob was a real hard man and to be honest, it upset me that he didn’t fulfill for me his potential to be a champion on the professional boxing scene. Bob weighed around 12 stone but he’d regularly be knocking out men at 16 stone. He was a hard man there’s no mistake. He was from Bentley in Doncaster.

Do you have one dog that you feel didn’t ever realise his true potential ?

“It’s difficult to say he didn’t reach his potential as he was a real high class greyhound and he won plenty including the East Anglian Derby a couple of times. Fear Zafonic though I’d have to say as he’s a dog that really should have had English Derby Champion attached to his name.

KINDA READY (5) catches Fear Zafonic (1) on the line to win the Blue Square Derby. They are clear of Wise Thought (6), Farloe Reason (3) and Ballymac Ruso (2). Wimbledon 30.5.09 Pic: Steve Nash

“When he was beaten by Kinda Ready in the Derby Final in 2009 I initially kept my council on it. I knew Zafonic had picked up an injury before they turned for home, his stride went wrong and to me it was clear to see. Nobody likes a sore loser though and you’d never want to come across that way.

“The simple truth is though that he picked up a monkey muscle injury which needed an operation on, we had to take our time with him after that but eventually got him back and like I say he went on to win a couple of East Anglian Derbies.

“Being honest I drove away from Wimbledon that night sick, I could have cried really it upset me that much. I’d not say for myself, but for the dog and in particular his owners. Zafonic was sold to Australia after retiring from the sport for a large sum to be used as a stud dog down there.

From the Lister collection of East Anglian Derby Final wins: Larkhill Bullet with the Whelan family back in 2002. pic Steve Nash

You won many competitions around the country, but if you could comeback to win one more competition, excluding the English Derby which speaks for itself, which competition would it be ?

“No question the East Anglian Derby at Yarmouth. I’ve won the competition many times and it means a lot to me. I always tried to ensure I had a decent dog for the event. I’ve a lot of friends down that way, particularly from my time spent in the timber industry.

“I’d stay down there and kennel the dog(s) down there to save the travelling back and forth. It obviously worked well. I had some great times down there, there’s a lot of good people down that way.

Talking about competitions, was there anything in particular you did with a dog to help with recovery during competitions, especially say in the latter stages of the English Derby with the old three runs in a week format ?

“Once you get to that stage of a competition there isn’t too much you can or really should be doing. Your dog is as fit as you’re going to get him so it’s all about rest and recovery really. I’d obviously give the dog a good check over, particularly his feet and just making sure everything is ok. I’d use electrolytes as well to get the fluids back as they should be, rest is the main thing at that stage though.

I was asked to ask you about your thoughts on feeding and galloping ?

“Feed is very important. I always fed twice a day and Chris continues that now. For breakfast I’d feed maybe cornflakes, eggs and milk and for dinner the dogs would get their biscuit as well as plenty of good quality meat. I always felt breakfast was important, if you’ve a dog running in the evening but that dog hasn’t ate anything of any real substance since the previous lunchtime, it’s a long time without food. I’d also give a small race meal on the day of the race just so the dogs that were running weren’t feeling left out, just a small bowl of raw beef mince with milk and glucose.

“Galloping wise yes I’ve always had the gallop, it’s not overly long but it’s long enough to give the dogs the blow out I think they need. Once you’ve a dog fit and running you can do too much. But I do believe if you’ve got a week between races you should put a dog up the gallop in the middle of the week, you can walk the legs off a dog. But a quick gallop will make sure his muscles are fully stretched out and his lungs have had a pipe opener. Never do too much though.

You didn’t often travel to Ireland for competitions, why was that ?

Charlie Lister with Some Picture – pic Steve Nash

“I travelled to Ireland a couple of times with real good dogs. First off I went with Rapid Ranger, he was a great dog and reached the Irish Derby Final. Secondly I went with Some Picture.

“He was the best dog I ever trained. Some Picture was a once in a lifetime dog and really he should have won the competition there that year. After the second round though he was never once right. He picked up sickness and we had to rush to the vet from where we were staying with the Dunphy family.

“He was on a drip and wasn’t at all well. Really it was touch and go and to be honest I probably should have withdrawn him from the competition. Steve Spiteri owned him and I said to Steve I’m thinking we should pull him out. The dog owed us nothing he’d already won the Scottish and the English Derbys that year and was going for the Triple Crown. There was a big bonus on for winning all 3 and obviously the prestige would have meant a lot.

“Anyway he started improving and we cracked on with it but though he reached the final, really he’d done well to get that far given how he’d been and he was beat before he went into the traps and had been very lethargic all week after his semi final.

“Don’t get me wrong he was fit to run but at that end of the game you need to be at your peak and that sickness had took the edge away from him. At that time the Dunphys were mainly coursing breeders, Some Picture stayed behind with them and became one of their first racing sires. Obviously their Droopys prefix is known all over greyhound racing these days.

Is there a dog from another kennel that you wish you’d have trained yourself ?

“I’d not really like to name a particular dog as some trainers might feel you were being disrespectful. There were plenty over the years though that I’d like to have trained and some did indeed make there way to me in the end.

“What I will say though is I not once ever tried to poach a dog from another kennel. I don’t believe that’s the way you should work at all, it lacks respect really. If I was offered a dog to train then yes fair enough i’d take them on, but I didn’t ever go poaching.

Charlie you’ve been lucky to have some good owners attached to your kennel over the years, do you feel good owners are integral to a successful kennel ?

“Having good owners is a must. That works from both sides really. An owner must have trust in you to do the job they’re paying you for. I could never be doing with owners ringing me up saying to do this, do that or go here or there. The trainer is the man or woman with the dog, the owner is paying them to do the job right and to make the right decisions for the dog.

“If the owner isn’t happy that the trainer is making the right calls then really the dog is probably in the wrong kennel. I’d say from my record over the years that I made the right decisions more often than not and in the main I was lucky to be supported by good owners who left me to do the job.

It has been suggested by some greyhound folk that you didn’t ever get the credit you really deserved from the press over the years? Do you think this is the case ?

“In someways yes I suppose it is. I got a fair amount of recognition, the competition wins saw to that. I never went snivelling around the press though, there’s alot of people in the game, in life even that will give people a slap on the back to get where they want. That was never my style and I suppose I was maybe a bit outspoken for the liking of some of the press.

“Maybe I was deemed a bit awkward with them. That’s not the case I just said what I believed. I suppose it might be true but some people don’t like it and maybe my achievements and those of the dogs didn’t quite get highlighted as some other peoples might have due to that.

Do you think trainers undervalue themselves with what they charge per day for training a dog ?

“Without a doubt yes. I was never greedy with what I charged though myself, I think I was charging £8 a day at the time I retired. I was lucky though that I had good owners who looked after myself and my staff well after a good win. Realistically trainers should be charging £10 a day minimum for what they put in. You’ve got some trainers running dogs on ‘run money’ deals.

“This practice is trainers disrespecting their own worth is in my opinion. It makes it difficult for other trainers who want to do the job properly. It should have absolutely no place in the sport.

“A trainer has his or her worth. I hear about owners saying ‘listen I’m moving my dog to such and such because they’ll train it for the run money. Sorry but I’m moving the dog on’. Trainers doing this need to start thinking about their fellow professionals and start respecting their own value a bit more too.

To conclude, how important is a competitive, vibrant open racing scene to the sport ?

“Extremely important. You ask any proper dog man where he gets his buzz from and he’ll tell you it’s from the open racing scene. If we don’t get this side of the sport right then we may as well forget it as people will soon lose that buzz for the sport if all they’re getting is mundane day to day graded racing every day.

“Don’t get me wrong that side of the sport is important too, they can’t all be champions, but the sport needs the open racing scene to be successful. Prize money for opens needs looking at too, it should be a minimum of £300 a win and £75 a run in my view.”